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Here's a subject and a man to intrigue.

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The country's going wild now with three ports of UFO unidentified flying objects.

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They're going all over the place.

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Recently we had a guest on the show, Frank Edwards, who is convinced UFOs are from another

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planet and he's written a book about it and has pretty good arguments.

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Today a UFO expert, Dr. Alan Heineck, he is director of Lindheimer Astronomical Research

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Center at Northwestern University and he's consultant to the Air Force on UFOs is here

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to tell us what he thinks of this phenomena.

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So here is Dr. Alan Heineck.

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We're all going to hang on every word, doctor.

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I tell you that.

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Every where you take up a magazine, it's getting hotter the whole issue.

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It is, it is really.

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What do you think?

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Well, I think that I started with you way back in 1948 and then you started it.

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I mean I started investigating before.

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And then I think I would have taken just about any bet that by 1950 or 51 we would have forgotten

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the whole thing.

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It would have been something like, well do you remember the, I'm sure you can, the old

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fishing craze and so what?

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Sure.

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And the...

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And the reports are persisted.

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And I don't only have the persisted but they're getting more and more.

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Are you not the one doctor recently in the reports at the girl's school up in the Northwest

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that went up and said it was gas or something?

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Or it was a gas.

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They all were gas.

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No, it's not something you...

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Well, that was gas.

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That's not me.

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But this is a very special case.

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Now do you have about half an hour to go into the chemistry of the situation?

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We don't go anyway.

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Well, I think we'll postpone that unless you want to.

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No, no, no, no.

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But all I want from you was definitely, according to your investigation, a gas rising from a

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pond, right?

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This was a very likely explanation since the excitings occurred, both of them in Dexter

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and in Hillsdale.

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They both occurred in swamps.

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And the fields have been near electrical plants.

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Yes.

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They've gone now.

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I think it's part of a great big electrolysis where the offshoots of a...

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Adam's electricity might split the moisture into hydrogen and oxygen, and the two gases

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have separate colors.

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There's our chemistry.

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Did you know this was what the doctor said?

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Very good.

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Very good.

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Just as the doctor said, and this often happens on this show, we have Walter Sullivan on

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occasion, he's a society editor, the science director, and the professor, and the professor

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of the New York Times.

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And he always says, yes, that's a likely explanation.

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Yes.

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It's a very unusual explanation.

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I should say murder because I think if the papers jumped on that and said, because this

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was a likely explanation in that case, it explained all UFOs.

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Well, it certainly doesn't.

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In fact, I think that was the only case we had in out of 10,000 cases.

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Why did you not get a scientist though to say that is definitely the explanation?

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Well, because he's a scientist.

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He's bound to be cautious, he's supposed to weigh and consider.

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He doesn't jump in and jump to conclusions unless he has some evidence.

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What do you think doctor UFOs are?

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Well, first of all, they're reports.

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Yeah, I've got a little bit of a question.

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Here, you just so happen this sheet on the Dear George or by George, Carl and other student

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wrote in the Dear George, I'm looking for proof that unidentified flying objects exist.

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Somebody says you had information on this matter.

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Do unidentified flying objects exist and what exactly are they?

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Time student.

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George writes back, Dear student.

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Unidentified flying objects do exist.

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Obviously, if we knew what they were, they would no longer be unidentified flying objects.

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They would be identified flying objects.

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Think man, think.

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And that's exactly what the whole point is.

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UFOs are reports and the great, great majority of them turn from UFOs into ISOs, identified flying objects.

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The great majority.

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But for the unidentified ones.

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Let's talk about the unidentified ones.

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What are the possibilities?

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What might they be?

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Well, generally, there's a great school that says they're all nonsense.

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Then there are some people who say they're secret devices.

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The government is testing something and we really, they say come off.

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Can't you really tell me now?

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I'm not sure.

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But aren't they really secret devices?

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And as a third hypothesis, of course, as Frank Hepburn seems to believe, they are from other solar systems or other planets, at any rate.

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And there are little people operating them?

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Well, intelligence.

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I've never seen any new people operating them.

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No.

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But this is the report.

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And these things, one thing is, they're not just a report.

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Well, intelligence.

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I've never seen any new people operating them.

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No.

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But this is the report.

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And these things, one must always remember that they are reports.

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We have no hardware, no pictures that show real detail.

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Nobody would have to be happier than me as an astronomer to have visits from other solar systems.

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It would make astronomy even more exciting than it is.

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I think we must keep that possibility open, you know.

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Then I asked, in all of the artist concepts that I've seen of little men from outer space, they've been sort of round or egg shaped with several arms.

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And I was looking at people or the objects.

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Whatever we saw, whatever images, seemed to have that look.

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And just notice how similar that would look to a surveyor if some moon people should see this object land on the moon with all the bees,

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tentacles and all the bees.

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It would seem to them as though a strange thing should happen.

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I suppose that same minute one of our people from the space agency should press the button and it should leave the moon's surface by its own power.

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They would say, gee, we saw it land and turn around and take pictures and shoot off.

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And then somebody on the moon tries to explain that to them.

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Is it possible that just such technology could be taking place from other planets?

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It's certainly possible.

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But I think here we have to distinguish between the words possible and probable.

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Things can be possible, scientifically possible and yet not very probable.

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For instance, I want to know where are these things at 12 o'clock noon?

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So many of them are reported at night.

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Where are they hiding at high noon?

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Wouldn't you come in at night if you were to go on another planet?

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No, I wouldn't.

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No, I wouldn't.

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No, it's not at 12 o'clock noon.

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We know we're there.

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We can see them through telescopes.

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What you are consulting to the Air Force, is there any official word from the Air Force or curiosity, official curiosity from the Air Force?

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Do they put any emphasis?

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Well, we have very recently, and so has the Scientific Advisory Board,

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advised the Air Force really that we should take the whole problem considerably more seriously than we have.

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What do they think?

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I think they're going to go along with me.

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Let me tell you about the caliber of people who are reporting these things, Doctor.

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Airline pilots, I've been reporting them.

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What do you think of the caliber?

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Well, that's the point.

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You know, it wasn't Lincoln who said, I'm sure, that you can't call all the people liars all the time, but if you didn't, you should have said it.

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And that's the condition I'm sort of finding myself in.

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On one hand, we have no hardware.

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We have no real photographs.

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All the things seem to be against it.

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On the other hand, I cannot continue to call everybody a liar.

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We have not only pilots, but we have directors assigned to the laboratories that have reported these to me.

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We have, well, I'll take the great number of policemen.

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We have, I think, in general, policemen are to be respected.

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It's certainly, certainly in certain cases, the testimony of those very men would be sufficient to send the person to the chair or the gas chamber.

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And yet, why then should we not at least seriously take a look and listen to their testimony when they say they were followed by a very brilliant, bright light?

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They took pictures of that, excuse me.

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They took pictures of that particular one where the two highly respected policemen were together in the midwest, remember, and was red with the flashing lights.

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And it was followed by, I saw the pictures.

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Oh, it's a giant.

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Yeah.

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It was in the Saturday evening post.

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Oh.

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And they had taken pictures, and that's a reliable source, because they won't send it to the chair, but they're all front.

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They had taken pictures of, it looked like the usual, you know, saucers, like two saucers together, but it seemed to have a series of lights.

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And of all the people who saw this thing, the majority of them were all highly respected people.

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And in one case, the policemen saw it and he thought he was cracking up and he went and got his superior officer who came back and they took, they did take pictures of it.

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It was red and it was in some funny place like a, I hate to say funny place, should they see your show in Iowa?

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Well, it was some darling place.

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I was thinking, well, how come they're looking in Iowa and they were in New Hampshire and stuck to it in little towns in New Hampshire?

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And I thought, gee, you think they'd come, I know it's that big city snobbery, but you think they'd come to New York or go to Washington or Fort Knox or, you know, they don't know, what's it going?

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I mean, here's the thing, Dr. Sides and the Sightings, have you had any audible contact through electronic devices that would indicate there's something out there that we don't know about?

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Well, that's another thing that bothers me. We do have radar surveillance. Radars that they are sufficiently good to pick up an explosion bolt in orbit.

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And when, you know, a bolt, something falls off a gemini or something, radar can pick this up.

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And therefore, if this is the dilemma, this is the real problem that puzzles me and I think why we should look at it more carefully.

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Admitting that I've been very much a skeptic all along and I'm generally considered a debunker.

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But all along these objects or these reports, the reports, for instance, have the problem here essentially that you have a dilemma between lack of tangible evidence,

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tangible evidence, and you have the reports of reputable, good people.

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Nothing has ever been recorded on radar. There are, yes, there are reports, many reports of sightings on radar.

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But there are also many denials. It's very difficult to trace back and find out whether it actually was seen enough.

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Is it possible that if they have this equipment and this, you know, ability, you know, assuming, I would like to think personally that they really were from other planets.

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I really would.

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That if they had this, you know, knowledge and put it to this kind of use, would they not then conceivably have something that could wipe out, you know, would, would something to deter their special,

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you know, you know, all the way.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Very difficult if they're, if they have any metal.

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Maybe they don't have, maybe they don't have metal.

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Maybe it's all plastic.

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They come from a planet where metal is not part of matter.

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Well, it's becoming very archaic now, metal. Everything's in plastic. I'm sorry to say.

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Oh, that's all right.

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You can say.

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Yeah.

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Well, it's okay.

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What are these things you brought on?

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Oh, those are simply to show that the part of the static or part of the noise, you see, part of the IFO was built, the UFO was very quickly become IFOs, identified flying out.

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We have some folks, there's not many, but here was one in Glassboro, New Jersey, which we spend a lot of time on.

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And finally, after all this bunk in the middle of this, it's on this.

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There's a black cat with a firecracker.

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I don't think they're making black cat firecrackers on mine.

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But it was picked on this one.

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Two great school students, eleven year old students reported this to their science teacher.

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And somebody had found this, that it's, this is fallen from the air.

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It turned out to be an extrusion from a nylon machine.

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It's a reject from a bunch of old songs.

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A bunch of old songs, yeah.

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Well, those, what you're wearing out there ladies.

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You see, these, they're not many of these.

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You would think there'd be many more hoaxes, but there aren't.

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Do we every hear reports from other nations?

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Why is everything coming from America?

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It isn't, it isn't at all.

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Other countries are reporting this, it's a global phenomenon, completely global.

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They started, as a matter of fact, in Sweden, not in here, in 1946 in Sweden.

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And let's go over to the countries, well, England has more UFOs per square mile than we do.

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Of course we have more square miles.

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But France had a tremendous wave in 1964.

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Brazil, Argentina, Australia, Japan, Spain.

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I'm not sure about Russia, they wouldn't tell us anyway.

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What you say 1946 was the first?

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But I first, the modern wave.

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If because aren't these listed in history?

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Yes, there are, they always have been sightings, unexplained sightings in the sky.

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Clear bag, except that the reporting was not very good in those days.

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And then you thought away.

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Yeah, that may have been a slight error.

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Yeah, yeah.

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What do you think eventually is going to happen? Are you...

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Well, I'm seriously proposing after all these years of thinking about it,

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I'm perhaps, have been rather cautious.

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But I think now it's high time that civilian scientists took a solid look at this,

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that we have, I'd like to actually propose a civilian scientist research center

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for the study of the UFO phenomenon.

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And by the UFO phenomenon, I mean not only the reports,

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but the kinds of people who make the reports,

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and the general study of the public interest.

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And I would not have just physical scientists,

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the scar on immersion, the UFO phenomenon.

233
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But I think we should also have psychologists and people who are well versed in investigative techniques.

234
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In other words, I think the time has come when we should give a good, solid, scientific look at this thing.

235
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Interesting. Good.

236
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We'll be right back.

237
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Thank you.